Today being the feast of St. Andrew, according to my Plan for the Minimum Use of Eucharistic Prayer I, it was my first time praying the Roman Canon in the new translation. It was the occasion of my first real stumble over what some folks are calling the awkwardness of the English.
It was right in the middle of the memento for the living:
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them.
I stumbled right on the "or" and lost the thread, as my dad would say.
Here's the Latin:
Memento, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum N. et N.
et omnium circumstantium,
quorum tibi fides cognita est et nota devotio,
pro quibus tibi offerimus:
vel qui tibi offerunt hoc sacrificium laudis,
pro suisque omnibus.
I'm no liturgist or liturgical historian, but my sense of the prayer has always been that everyone present is gathered into the Eucharistic Prayer as well as those named or recalled. It is for them that the sacrifice is offered, as they also are offer to God their sacrifice of praise. That's my sense of the vel; it joins the sacrifice of praise offered by those named and those present to the sacrifice the priest offers to God. In that sense I don't get the "or" in the translation. I think it should say 'and.'
Also, the punctuation of the typical edition would have suggested a helpful colon after "praise."
Not that I'm making excuses for my stumbling and failure to study hard enough before offering the prayer.
4 comments:
The translators know Latin better than I do, so I am in no position to question them, but it does seem strange to say "or" in that situation. In the current Spanish translation of the first Eucharistic Prayer, in the part you cite, the word "or" seems to be avoided altogether in favor of the word "and". It is as following (without accents): "Acuerdate, Senor, de tus hijos N. y N. y de todos los aqui reunidos, cuya fe bien conoces; por ellos y todos los suyos, por el perdon de sus pecados y la salvacion que esperan, te ofrecemos, y ellos mismos te ofrecen, este sacrificio de alabanza, a te, eterno Dios, vivo y verdadero." That seems to capture more of what you are trying to get at, which makes me wonder why the word "and" could not be included as opposed to "or" in English.
Excellent! Thanks for putting up the Spanish.
But Father, it is not only those who are named are referred to in this part of the Eucharistic Prayer, everyone actually. Take note of the highlighted phrase:
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
AND ALL GATHERED HERE,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them.
The THEY after the OR also refers to ALL GATHERED HERE and not just to those actually named. IMHO only Father. God bless you Father and your ministry.
IMHO, Father, I think there is no problem in the translation. The prayer does not only refer to those named but to everyone and there is no problem with the use of the OR instead of AND. Please look at the highlighted phrase:
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
AND ALL GATHERED HERE,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them.
In other words, the THEY after the OR refers also to everyone present in the Sacrifice and not just to those who are actually named. Thank you, Father, and God bless you and your ministry.
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